RECORD OF INTERVIEW BETWEEN AFP ONE NINE ONE ONE TWO AND OLGA IVSHINA CONDUCTED AT SCHIPHOL AIRPORT POLICE STATION, NETHERLANDS ON THURSDAY, NINE APRIL, TWO THOUSAND AND FIFTEEN
PERSONS PRESENT: AFP ONE NINE ONE ONE TWO NPN SEVENTEEN ONE EIGHT THREE NPN ONE SEVEN TWO O ONE MS OLGA IVSHINA MR EMIEL JURJENS (LAWYER)
TIME COMMENCED:
TEN FORTY-SEVEN AM
NPN 17183: All right. Good morning. This is a digital record of interview conducted at the Schiphol Airport Police Station in The Netherlands. It's now Thursday, nine April of two thousand and fifteen. The time is now ten forty-seven am and persons - the persons who are present here is AFP one nine one one two and NPN seventeen one eight three and NPN one seven two O one. With us is witness Olga IVSHINA. She was born ten November, eighty-six in the Russian Federation and her lawyer, Emiel JURJENS from the Office of the Kennedy Van der LAAN with his attorney number A two seven three three eight.
Q1.
Well, welcome. From here, my colleague will take it over with some formal questions and from there on we go further with the interview, yeah?
AFP19112; Q2. You've been asked to assist with this investigation and are being interviewed as a witness in the scope of the criminal investigation into the downing of the Malaysian air flight MH seventeen which crashed in the Donetsk region of the Ukraine on Thursday, seventeenth of July, two thousand and fourteen. The criminal investigation into the incident is being conducted by a joint investigation team known as the JIT. The countries involved in the JIT are Australia, The Netherlands, Belgium and the Ukraine. This interview will result in a written summary and a transcript which may eventually be submitted to a court as evidence should a prosecution commence. If this occurs the suspects and their legal representatives will have access to it. Your statement may be provided to other countries within the JIT including Australia, The Netherlands, Belgium and the Ukraine. Do you understand?
а    Yeah.
NPN17201: Q3. Little - just add on to it now also Malaysia is part of JIT.
А  Okay.
AFP19112: Q4.All right. Do you agree that any statement you make accurately sets out the evidence that you would be prepared, if necessary, to give in a court as a witness?
А  Yeah.

A
Yeah. I think it was - in July it was my sixth time in Donetsk region.
Q20.
Okay.
A I think so. Yeah, probably six time I think. Six or seven.
Q21.Okay.
A And then when we are coming now near to the crash when did you came there? To the crash?

Q22. Yeah.
А On - on Sunday. So it was the twentieth I think, so,
Q23. A
Okay. Yeah. At the - at the evening of crash I was in Rostov then we went back, so we went - since the flights were cancelled on Friday we went by train to Kiev and then, yeah, I was - I was there on Sunday.

Q24. Okay, How did you hear about it? You were in Rostov you said?
А No, no - yeah, I was in Rostov. I was - - -
Q25. Yeah.
А -- deployed to Rostov.

Q26 When this happened.
A When it happened I was flying. So when we landed I got the call - -

Q27. Yeah.
А  -- from - from my bosses and they said, well, you need to fly back (Laughs).

Q28. Okay.
A A plane crashed.
Q29. Okay, You just came to - -
A To Rostov.

Q30.- Rostov?
A Yeah and then they said we need to go back because plane crashed. They - there was - we thought maybe to go straight from Rostov but then we can see that it too dangerous so we flew back to Moscow and then went there from Moscow.
AFP19112:
Q31. Sorry, how do you spell Rostov?
A R o s t o v. It's - the full name is Rostov-on-Don because the …(indistinct)… also Russian.
Q32. And how do you spell - -
A Then - - -

Q33.Hyphen?
A Hyphen 'on'.

Q34. On? 
А On, another hyphen and then Don, Don.

Q50. Okay. And when did you travel back to - and how did you travel? You've - how did you fly, in which airport, from where?
A You mean there or back?

Q51. Yeah, from - you were from - in Rostov. From there onto Moscow you said.
A From there onto Moscow and - -

Q52. Yeah.
A- since the flights were cancelled at the moment I believe, I think so, we took a train - -

Q53. Okay.
A - - to Kiev. So it was Moscow to Kiev, overnight train.
Q54. And how long is that?
A Overnight.
Q55. Okay.
A Like, for ten hours or - well, I'm not really sure, it's the overnight train.
Q56. M'mm.
A So Saturday morning we were in Kiev. Did some tasks for - for BBC because they needed - they wanted to - to cover reaction of the Ukrainian - official reaction of the Ukrainian side.

Q57. Yeah.
AFP19112:

Q58. And that's Saturday the nineteenth?
А Saturday. Yeah, on the - on Saturday. And then in the evenig we bought the train ticket and went to near Dnepropetrovsk.
Q59. M'mm.
A It was another overnight train I think.
NPN17183:
Q60. From - this from Saturday, nineteen - - -
A To - to Sunday, the twentieth.

Q61. Okay.
AFP19112:
Q62. And, sorry, how do you spell that town, please?
A Dnepropetrovsk?
NPN17183:
Q63. Dnepropetrovsk. The most difficult name here. Perhaps you can write it down for us.
A Yeah, no problem.
AFP19112:
Q64. And you travelled overnight by train from Kiev to - -
A To Dnepropetrovsk.

JURJENS: Why do you need?
AFP19112:
Q82. Well, just in case we need to chase him up as a witness down the track, that's all. It's just normal procedure.
NPN17183:
Q83. Perhaps he can tell us also some things.
А I mean, I know - I know his name.
Q84. M'mm.
A Maybe if you - if - could you please request BBC.
Q85. M'mm.
A If BBC allows me I will provide his name.

Q86. Okay.
AFP19112: Did you want to give advice on that or?
JURJENS: Yeah. So that's probably all - what I would advise.
＿ IVSHINA: (Laughs) I don't know his surname to be - to be honest but - - -
JURJENS: (Laughs) …(indistinct)… in general --
AFP19112:
Q87. You only have his first name?
A First name but - - -
Q88. Would you be happy just to provide his first name perhaps?
JURJENS: I think for any names - -
IVSHINA: Still, Still.
JURJENS: - - - it would be - just to go through - - -
IVSHINA: BBC.
JURJENS: And make a list of - -
IVSHINA: But I mean we - - -
JURJENS: - -- persons names you're interested in.
IVSHINA: Yeah. But there is a way of finding his second name but if - -
AFP19112:
Q89. No, that's all right.
A Could you please request and then I will try - - -
Q90. Just to assist on our side before we go down the names and details are you able to provide the type of vehicle it was, just so we know we can distinguish.

Q101. Yeah?
JURJENS: These are all BBC employees, right?
IVSHINA: Yeah.
JURJENS: Yeah.
IVSHINA: Can I name them? Okay. It was Oksana VOZHDAYEVA.
NPN17183:
Q102. Yeah. Producer.
JURJENS: Her name is also on the internet.
NPN17183:
Q103. Yeah.
A Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Q104. Oksana?
A VOZHDAYEVA.
Q105. I've got it here. Oksana.
A Yeah, yeah, it was mentioned somewhere.
AFP19112:
Q106. Yeah. Oksana VOZHDAYEVA, is it? V O Z H D A - -
A VOZHDAYEVA.
Q107. Yeah.
A Yeah. Yeah, it was …(indistinct)… VOZHDAYEVA.
Q108. Yeah. So apart from you, the driver and Oksana, was there anyone else in the car with you?
A At that moment, no.
Q109. Okay.
NPN17183:
Q110. You had - you have been there for and you have got a press card from Donetsk -
A Donetsk People's Republic.
Q111. Yeah.
A Was it working? I mean, yeah, we - we had - I don't really remember, er, you know, these detail but, yeah, we - generally we had cards. They - they do expire - -
Q112. Yeah.
A - - from time to time and we have to renew them.
Q113. Okay.
A Yeah.

- DPR officials weren't working. I think we grabbed it next day or something.
Q128. That's okay.
NPN17183:
Q129. All right. Then you came into Dnepropetrovsk.
A Mm.
Q130. And from there on you went by car further. Where did you go - -
А We go - -

Q131. on that day?
A We went all the way to the crash site. We - we were heading - what near - I remember because we were changing our plans always.
Q132. Yeah.
A We went into the direction of crash site definitely. I don't remember whether we came exactly to the crash site at that day because our main task was to go to Torez.
Q133. Okay.
А Because on that day the - the - the bodies or the first bodies were put into the train.
NPN17201:
Q134. Yes.
NPN17183:
Q135. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was on the twenty. Yeah.
А  Yeah. And we went there to cover that story.
Q136. Okay. This first of all you went to the train station in Torez?
JURJENS: It was a plan.
NPN17183:
Q137. That was the plan? Yeah.
A That - that wasn't planned. We just - while we were going to the crash site on - on the way we called some rebel officials, rebel activists and found out that the bodies are being put - are being, you know, heading - are heading, so to say, to Torez so we went to that train station I think.
Q138. Okay.
A Yeah.
Q139. Okay, And can you tell us what you saw over there and - - -
A Well, it's a small train station. There were some rebel fighters, several journalists. Not many at the moment - I think we were one of the first to come there.
Q140. You were in the morning or?
A I think it was midday.

Q153. Okay.
A Not many.
Q154. Yeah. Okay.
NPN17183:
Q155. Then you said we were going home but - -
A You mean to Donetsk.

Q156. Donetsk. Yeah, okay. That's a question. Where to? You went to Donetsk?
A To Donetsk, yeah.
Q157. And you have a hotel over there?
A Yeah, Ramada hotel.
Q158. The Ramada Hotel. Yeah. Famous hotel for all the journalists.
A Yeah, yeah.
Q159. Yeah.
AFP19112:
Q160. So you didn't actually get to the crash site that night?
A As far as I remember, no.
Q161. Okay.
А Don't think so.
Q162. When you refer to the crash site can I ask which one it was?
А Ah.
Q163. What do you know as the crash sites?
А The - where - where the biggest parts were, where the - where there was the - the - -
Q164. If I showed you a map would you be able to identify that location on the map?
A Yeah, probably.
Q165. All right.
A I think it was near Grabovo.
Q166. Okay, Just for the purpose of the interview I'm just going to produce a map which is title 'Debris points update' and it's a large map containing a number of red and yellow dots.
A Okay.
Q167. And there's Grabovo over there.
A Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, it was here. It was this big place where there was fire.
Q168. So the debris was still burning or smoking?
A Smoking, yeah, yeah.

A Well, they said that rebels are more or less relaxed, that the checkpoints are not harsh because in - during our last visit it was very hard at the checkpoints.
Q184. Much harder than
A It was easier. During the - during the crash rebels were very loyal, so to say, you know, very mild. I would even say friendly, so even if you didn't have accreditation the - they would let you go. They - they didn't ask for it basically.
Q185. Okay, And experience from before they were tougher - - -
A Way, way tougher.
Q186. Way tougher?
A We had - we had serious problems.
Q187. And then - in what way, make - there any problems to you or?
A Even before.
Q188. Yeah?
A Yeah, yeah. They were - well, there were various problems at the checkpoints.
Q189. Oh, right.
A They were checking documents and sometimes checking our belongings, asking various questions. You know, the - looking our - at our accreditations, cross-checking accreditations. Sometimes they were threatening us if they didn't like us.
Q190.Mm. Mm.
А Well, yeah, they were very tough times.
Q191. It was tougher. Yeah, okay. Yeah. All right.
AFP19112:
Q192. So - Yeah, go on.
NPN17183:
Q193. Yeah. Well, then the next day did you made a plan whether where the two of you were to - what you wanted to go to do?
А Yeah. One of our colleagues suggested that we should go and try to - to find a possible Buk launch site so we decided to go to the crash site first, talk to people and then maybe go and try to find the Buk launch site.
AFP19112:
Q194. Which colleagues suggested you go look for Buk launch sites?
A It was in a general discussion. So we were, like, discussing who would do that and in the process the roles were distributed.
Q195. So is it more perhaps of an informal conversation -
A Yeah.

Q196. -- with your colleagues?
A Absolutely. Absolutely.

Q210. With a smoke trail?
A -- - white - white smoke. Yeah, yeah.
NPN17183:
Q211. White smoke.
A So, yeah, they - they presented this evidence and there's - they had the first big interview to BBC. Not head - the head of the - how do you call it?

Q212. Counter intelligence?
А Counter-intelligence.
Q213. Okay.
A Gave interview to - to BBC. So we knew this version already. This was one of the main versions and we just thought that this would be good news, you know. If we - but at the moment there was no major evidence, no proper evidence - what you say - and we just thought that, you know, if Buk fires it should be some bad burned grass or at least something, so it will be a good idea to try to find it, like, any traces of it.
AFP19112:
Q214. So again, just for the purposes of the tape, when you refer to the person as being the head of counter-intelligence with the SBU, you're referring to Mr NAIDA?
A NAIDA, m'mm.

Q215. Yeah. All right. Thank you.
NPN17183:
Q216. And I think this is the photo you mean that
A Yeah, exactly.
Q217. That one is what they showed?
A Exactly.
Q218. Yeah. Okay. Perhaps you want to write on it the first picture attachment.
AFP19112:
Q219. Could we ask you if you could just sign on there, please?
A Like, my name and - - -
Q220. Just your - just a signature.
NPN17183:
Q221. Just your signature.
A Just a signature.
AFP19112:
Q222. And you can put today's date if you like and then we will sign that as well.
A Today is eighth, right? No, ninth.
Q223. Ninth. Thank you, Thank you.

A It was a colleague of mine.
Q236. It was BBC?
A Yeah. I think they - they specially agreed and so after the press conference they had an interview.
Q237. Exclusive.
AFP19112:
Q238. I think in your report you said that you had a report containing a sound bite from Vitaly NAIDA and you discussed that he mentioned the aircraft had been shot down by a Buk.
A Yeah.
Q239. And the Buk missile arrived in Donetsk on the seventeenth of July, two thousand and fourteen.
A Yeah, that's - that's what he said. Yeah, yeah.

Q240. Okay, All right. Thank you.
NPN17183:
Q241. Okay, But did you do the interview or your colleague?
A No, no, it was my colleague.
Q242. Okay, Yeah. Okay.
A Because - I mean, the - the interview itself was conducted by Gabriel GATEHOUSE.
Q243. Okay.
A Newsnight. BBC Newsnight reporter.
Q244. All right. Yeah.
A And Oksana was just present then.
Q245. M'mm.
A Listening to it and then we exchanged the …(indistinct)…
Q246. Okay, Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Well, let's go to the twentyfirst of July. You were leaving the hotel.
A Yeah.

Q247. And, yeah, well, what happened in the - on the day?
A Yeah. May I think a little bit?
Q248. Yeah. Yeah, sure.
A Just trying to remember it, you know.
Q249. Yeah.
(Background conversation)
JURJENS: No, thank you.
IVSHINA: I'll just try to recall what dates.

NPN17183:
Q266. Near the crash site? ＿
A No, no, the crash site - - -
Q267. Yeah, yeah.
A We - we went to the crash site --
AFP19112:
Q268. Oh, not the launch site, the crash site?
NPN17183:
Q269. Yeah, the crash site.
A Crash - crash site.
Q270. Okay.
A First we went to the crash site. Yeah, yeah.
AFP19112:
Q271. All right.
A First we went to the crash site.
NPN17183:
Q272. That's the one near Grabovo.
А Grabovo, yeah, yeah.
Q273. Which is showed on the map. Okay.
AFP19112:
Q274. So what time did you get to the crash sites roughly?
A Maybe it was - - -

Q275. Like, mid-morning?
A eleven or something I think.
Q276. All right.
A Don't really remember but - - -
Q277. No, that's okay.
A - the sun was, like, up already, like, quite high.
NPN17183:
Q278. Can you tell us what you saw when you arrived over there?
A Well, the - the debris.
Q279. Yeah.
A The remains, human remains. There was some human remains, the luggage of people, some of their personal belongings. We saw one of the dead bodies being covered, like, it was on the - lying on the - on the edge of the - on the border sort of say of the road and the - the grass.
Q280. Right. M'mm
A Some - - -
AFP19112:

AFP19112: Yeah.
NPN17183:
Q296. Write it down. Can you write it down which is one and which is two?
AFP19112:
Q297. I'll just put it down.
NPN17183:
Q298. And that was - on the crash site itself when you spoke with them?
A Yeah, yeah.
Q299. Yeah?
A I mean, not they're near the burnt parts but, yeah, yeah, it was - - on the crash site. It was near this - I remember there was, like, big green …(indistinct)… . There was, like, a - you see a visual person. There was, like, this huge green thing many journalists like to make their pieces to camera there because it was huge piece, like, a big green thing over there.
Q300. Mm.
A A row and there was this huge thing and that there actually is the crucifixion which says Grabovo.
Q301. Yeah. Okay. And there's also the one near the chicken farm. Do you remember? Do you remember that?
A Mm.
Q302. Yeah. Is it this one?
AFP19112:
Q303. All right. I'm just going to show the - for the purpose of the audio I'm just going to show the witness forensic map number two which is a close up of this area here that you mentioned before.
A Okay.

Q304. This is the road on the eastern side of the map which runs from south west to north east and this is the - what they call the crash area, crash site.
А Okay.
Q305. The road going up here to Grabovo.
А Grabovo, Okay,
Q306. Can you explain where you were here? That's a dam if that makes it easier for you in the centre of the photograph.
A No, no. You see, the problem was that it was July.
Q307. Yes.
A And the - the - how they call these things - there was - - -
Q308. These - - -
A The - the - --

Q318. Okay.
A Torez. So we came this way. And here was this crucifixion which was saying 'Grabovo'. And the - the village itself was like starting over there.
AFP19112:
Q319. Is that the same site that the priest was at? Did you - were you there when the priest was there?
A Ah, I didn't see the priest but I think, yeah, there was it was covered in flowers… was like a small stone - -
Q320. Yes. Uh-huh.
A Grabovo. Ah - yeah, so there was emergency worker's camp - well, I think, probably scale but still.
Q321. That's all right.
A And emergency workers. They have tents here and huge …(indistinct)… like, huge heap of personal belongings or something because one of our colleagues, like, found something, like, yeah, and throw it to this - this thing. Ah, somebody's - so we were somewhere here, ah - -
Q322. Could you mark an 'x' on the track where you think you were?
A Yeah, I'm trying to - still trying to allocate this. So this was somewhere here roughly, this was a burnt patch, the one which was smoking, you know, where, yeah, it was in the - close to the - to the hou houses - houses. Ah, emergency workers. Then this green thing was here.
Q323. Green things, sorry?
A Like a big piece of wreckage.
Q324. Okay. So it's your understanding that green thing was part of the plane?
A Yeah - -
Q325. Okay.
A Yeah, yeah, definitely was a part of the plane. And here there were many wreckage and I think here, somewhere here, we met a body.

Q326. Okay.
A Body, another body in the water. Wreckage. Luggage. So we first stopped, like, somewhere here.
Q327. Okay.
A And ran into some remains, minor - minor human remains. Well, we didn't know, we just stopped and then, lie (verbally demonstrates)
AFP19112:
Q328. When you say there were remains, can you describe what they were?
A How to say this? May I use the - -
Q329. Yes, by all means.
A - translator, yeah. The internal part of your stomach.

Q342. You're talking about still two women or three?
A No, it's - I still talk about those - - -
Q343. Those two?
A women. Those two women.
Q344. The first two.
A Yeah.
AFP19112:
Q345. So those first two women?
A Yeah.
AFP19112: So witnesses one and two?
A Yeah, exactly.
Q346. Okay.
NPN17183:
Q347. Thank you. And - well, can you recall again - yeah, we all have it here what they said but in general what they told you?
A Well, they told me that they - they saw that - they heard the - the sound of explosion or something like this. I mean, as far as I understand they don't really - you know, they are civilians.
Q348. Yeah, yeah.
A So they don't differ between, you know, when something is firing or when something is landing or they - they call it still all explosions or blasts or something like this. So they heard some sound of blast and because they were scared they ran out of house because they thought that - and they - they heard - they heard a blast and they also heard a sound of some aircraft being, you know, quite somewhere - somewhere near. So there was - - -
Q349. Yeah, a roaring sound.
A Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Q350. Yeah.
A So they were scared and they ran out of their home - of their house and then they saw parts of the - what they think be … (indistinct)… parts of the airplane falling down, some bodies falling down and they also said that they saw aircraft, another aircraft which was not broken into pieces like the - aircraft which was - which flew near and then disappeared from their vision.
Q351. Okay. They told you they were at their house.
A Yes.
Q352. They flew out their house.
A Yeah.
Q353. Okay, Did they tell you more about that?
A Well, yeah, they - a little bit in more detail, yeah, because I kept asking questions, trying to find out exactly how it happened and also they were constantly referring, like, everyone saw it, everyone saw it