NPN17183: - direction of - in what direction are you looking?
AFP19112:
Q845. To take this photograph where were you standing to look at that view, were you standing here looking this way at that point? Do you understand what we're saying? This point here - -
NPN17183: Q846. Which direction you were -
AFP19112:
Q847. Where the cross is on the map is that point on the - is on - sorry. Where the cross is marked number two on the photograph - -
A Yeah.
Q848. -- is the cross marked number two on the map. So where were you
standing to take this photograph?
A I was standing - I believe that - - -
Q849. In relation to that.
А - - - you know, not - not in relation to the map. I think - yeah, try to - yeah, I think maybe I was mistaken. So Torez was here. When I was taking the picture, you know, like - -
Q850. Yeah.
А - - not by compass but, like, by feeling - -
NPN17201:
Q851. Yeah.
А - Torez was, like, there and Snezhnoye was, like, there I think. I think so, might be mistaken though. Should it be here?
Q852. You were saying you were looking in the direction of the Saur-Mogila?
A So, Saur Mogila, yes. When - when we stand there then I saw Saur- Mogila was behind my - behind my back.
NPN17183;
Q853. Behind your back?
А Behind my back.
AFP19112: So where's Saur-Mogila here?
NPN17201:
Q854. If that's - so Saur-Mogila is here?
А Is it?
NPN17201: Yes.
AFP19112:
Q855. Yeah.
А Okay. Then - yeah, then I'm correct probably. Should it be - yeah, we came - - -
NPN17201: So if this - if Saur-Mogila is - you're - at your back - at your back then - --
NPN17183:
Q856. Because she was recorded at that moment in the film I think.
A Yeah, yeah. So Saur-Mogila was behind my - like, far away but still behind my back. Yeah, so I - I believe I was somewhere here, yeah.
Q857. So this - and this photo is taken in the direction of this way - -
AFP19112: Looking towards Saur-Mogila?
NPN17183: No, Saur-Mogila was here you see.
AFP19112: That's what I'm saying, yeah.
Q858. We're looking in the direction of Saur-Mogila.
NPN17201:
Q859. Yeah.
A Well, I - - -
AFP19112: Q860. So if you continued over here somewhere you'd eventually get to Saur- Mogila. A I mean, when - when I was taking this photo I didn't
Q861. Okay.
А I didn't see Saur-Mogila at all.
Q862. All right.
A So I couldn't, you know, allocate it at all but when we arrive there, then you can see Saur-Mogila. Maybe - you know, maybe you have to point a little bit but when you arrive on that - when you arrive on that spot, when you arrive on that horizon then you can see Saur-Mogila but when you take this picture you can't see Saur-Mogila so we - we -

A It's - it's - for me it's easier to - to draw my own maps (laughs),
NPN17183:
Q884. (Laughs) Oh, we should have known that.
А (Laughs) First of all let me draw the - the map of the - -
Q885. Yeah.
А Map of the first PTC. PTC is pistol camera.
NPN17183;
Q886. Pistol camera?
А  Pistol camera. The one where - where it appear on screen while I talk. Pistol camera. Like a - yeah.
AFP19112:
Q887. It's a lone camera?
А Huh?
Q888. One camera by itself, is that what you mean, pistol camera?
A No, pistol camera, it's where - a moment when correspondent appears on - on tape.
Q889. Okay.
NPN17183;
Q890. Okay, When - -
A When I say - -
Q891. When you are on tape - - -
А Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Q892. -- then it's - becomes a - - -
А Pistol camera.
Q893. - pistol camera.
А  BBC calls it like this.
Q894. Okay. Okay.
А So we were standing - - -
NPN17201:
Q895. …(indistinct)…
NPN17183:
Q896. Yeah.
А  You can see those buildings here. Then you could see those group of trees here, little trees here. Here was the end of barriers. There was a road - I think there was coal mine one, coal mine two.
AFP19112:
Q897. Were they numbered one and two or?
А  No, no, it's - in my head - they're numbered like this. There are all those hills, uphills, downhills, several this, you know. Mountains which are produced by coal mines. This was a lot of grass here, generally, like, uninhabited part so we stood here. We were fighting this grass because I'm short.
NPN17201:
Q898. Someone has to cut that.
A (Laughs). So, yeah, and that is what was on photo, so. And I believe - I remember we were discussing it, that photo was probably taken from somewhere here, like, somewhere from here. I don't know. Anyway, ay, and we were more from - from - from - from, like, you see we were more from here. But still it was, you know, satisfiable and recognisable.
AFP19112:
Q899. Were there any houses near that - near this area here?
А  Yeah, yeah, yeah. There were houses. This is the end of the …(indistinct)…
Q900. But were you - this particular area here that you've circled were there any houses there too?
A Yeah, yeah. I mean, we - we sort of didn't - yeah. We definitely seen some houses here but - - -
NPN17183:
Q901. And which city was it or village?
AFP19112: Torez.
NPN17183:
Q902. It was Torez?
А Well, this was the end of the Torez.
Q903. The end of Torez?
А The end of Torez.

А - - or something. Yeah, assumptions because I remember mention when we were writing, so this is definitely the proof that the - missile was launched and then we came and just found out that there may be different reasons for that smoke to come. That's how we thought at the moment.
Q922. Okay,
A Yeah.
Q923. That's good. Yeah.
NPN17183: Okay.
AFP19112: Do you have any other questions about that?
NPN17201: No, I think it's clear for me.
AFP19112: Yeah.
NPN17183: No, no. I think it's clear enough and I want to thank you for - - -
AFP19112: These. Yeah.
NPN17183:
Q924. For, yeah, the time you took now and the drawings because it makes a lot of sense for us.
A Really? Okay.
AFP19112: Yes. It's - -
NPN17201:
Q925. Very clear. Yeah.
A I feel guiity for not being able to allocate things that's (Laughs)
…(indistinct)… on there.
AFP19112:
Q926. No, that's good actually. It certainly makes it a bit clearer for us.
A Okay. Well, that's good.
Q927. So after leaving this place you then return back to the hotel at Donetsk.
А Yeah.
Q928. What did you do that evening?
А  Ah, edited. But not this piece, not the piece - about - as we called it, BUK hunt. But the - the one about the Dutch investigators arriving. Yeah, yeah, all that thing, you know, pictures from crash sites and
NPN17183:
Q929. That also got broadcasted?
А  Yeah, in - in Russian. Yeah, in Russian. We also filed a run for - for … (indistinct) … BBC. I don't know whether it was broadcasted. I mean, they don't report back to us and I was too - too busy and tired to check.
Q930. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
AFP19112:
Q931. Did you meet up with any other colleagues that night? Yeah, yeah, we - we met every evening - and discussed, you know, w, exchanged information because it's very important who - who have seen what, who have - done what, how are the rebels - it was very important for us. And also we - of course we spoke to each other, trying to help each other because - it was quite demanding job.
Q932. Yeah, would have been.
А Quite stressful, so we were just, you know, trying to help each other.
AFP19112:
Q933. Can you recall the names of any journalists that you would be happy to provide us?
A Well, basically we were sitting with - with our journalists, with BBC guys.
Q934. From BBC?
А  Yeah.
Q935. Okay. So apart from the names you've already given us from BBC was there anyone else from BBC?
А Well, there are - there were managers from BBC. There were - there were several crews, yeah.
Q936. Can you provide any names?
А  Yeah. Well, it was - there were many of them (laughs)
NPN17183:
Q937. (Laughs) Which one do you recognise?
А (Laughs) Should I name them all?
AFP19112:
Q938. As many as you recall.
A It was Daniel SANDFORD.

A Yes, and Natalia was together with Abduzhalil all the time. He was her cameraman. So, yeah, there was Daniel SANDFORD and his cameraman, Anton CHICHEV, also always with him.
Q951. CHICHEV?
А Yeah.
Q952. So C H?
А Yeah, CHICHEV, C H. Yeah. CHICHEV, yeah. Fergal KEANE I remember and Dom, his cameraman.
Q953. Fergal KEANE?
A KEANE, C - no, KE A N E. KEANE. Yeah, that's it.
NPN17183:
Q954. And, okay, tell what did you talk about with each other, did they have something and especially saw things –
A No, no. You see, we were sort of in a - in a better position because they were all reporting for BBC World or BBC News so they had very tight deadlines, they had a lot of commitments. Let's say Natalia, she had to do a lot of live requests. Daniel was doing for evening program, Fergal was for ten - for ten pm so they were, you know, really - they had really to stick to the day to day news. And - but we had a little bit more freedom so we could try to investigate things. We didn't have a a, you know, mandatory commitment to broadcast. I mean, we did broadcast every day but, you know, the - the request for us was lower so the - the demand for - for us was lower so we could only file, you know, small piece every day and it was fine. So we had more time to, you know, go around, etcetera. That's why Kevin sort of supported our decision to try to - to go on a BUK hunt. Because unlike all the others we had time for that, we could afford it, so to say.
AFP19112:
Q955. So after returning to the hotel you've edited the stories about the Dutch investigators, spoken with the other-
A All the guys, yeah.
Q956. - guys from BBC. Did you do anything else?
А No.
NPN17183:
Q957. Did they have information about the launch site?
A They?
Q958. Yeah.
А No.
Q959. No.
А They - for some reason - I mean they - they were not particularly, you know - they were - they were - they were interested in that as humans but professionally they had other commitments. They had to cover, you know, the - the crash site, as we say, as we call this, so they had to cover the news from the crash site. We see monitors, how bodies are doing, I think then one of the teams was deployed to Horlivka for something. So crash site, bodies, we see monitors … (indistinct) … Donetsk.
NPN17183:
Q960. But they ran into information about the BUK? They did –
A They - they ask, like, so how was - how was your hunt? Well, we said this are other news up to the moment. They said, well, you know, there is nothing - you know, like, really breaking in that so far. So, yeah, just - they said keep going but, yeah, nothing to - to be broken just yet.
AFP19112:
Q961. All right. So you did nothing else that day?
А  No.
Q962. Called it quits for the day, you went to bed.
А Yeah.
Q963. Then got up on Tuesday?
А Yeah.
Q964. The twenty-second of July.
А Yeah.
Q965. What can you tell us about Tuesday?
А  Ah, no, In the - in the - at - at night - sorry, You see it's - -
… (Indiscernible overtalking) …
at the evening of that day I also read on the internet and also my colleagues from the Russian Service told me that you know actually the bloggers they found the possible co-ordinates of the BUK launch and I started to read about this, that - yeah, that's what I did. I spent quite - quite a while reading all that and then there was a blogger investigation. The - I read it in Russian, it was

А Circled there.
Q985. And so we have northings, forty-seven degrees, yeah, fifty eight minutes, sixty seconds and eastings, thirty-eight degrees, forty-four minutes, fifty-six point two seconds. Did you get that?
NPN17183: Yeah.
AFP19112:
Q986. Thank you. So just to confirm they're the - that's the co-ordinates as provided on that report by the bloggers to be the launch site.
А M'mm, possible launch site.
Q987. Sorry, possible launch site. Excellent.
NPN17183:
Q988. Okay, And that's where you went the next day?
A Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Q989. And what did you see?
А (Laughs) We see a huge field.
AFP19112:
Q990. Sorry, what time did you go?
А Well, in the morning. I don't - maybe eight, something like this.
Q991. So this is Tuesday, the twenty-second now of July?
А  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Q992. About eight o'clock?
A Yeah.
Q993. And when - by vehicle again, by car?
А Yeah, by car. Yeah.
Q994. Same car, same crew?
А  I think so, yeah, yeah. Same car, same crew, yeah.
Q995. And how long did that journey take?
A Well, it takes some time, you know, because - maybe - maybe two hours I would say altogether, maybe a little bit more because there are all the checkpoints. You - you miss all the --
Q996. How many checkpoints did you go through?
А Four, five I think.
Q997. And who were manning the checkpoints?
А  Rebels. The rebels.
Q998. So if you had to compare the uniforms, the badges, the flags, the equipment at each checkpoint, were they similar? A Most of them. Most of them.
Q999. So you were led to believe that they're all rebels at every checkpoint?
А  What's that?
Q1000. So every checkpoint was definitely by rebels?
A Yeah, definitely.
Q1001. All right.
А Yeah.
Q1002. Did you see many logos, badges or flags?
A There was some.
Q1003. And would you recognize those again?
А  Well, I do remember that some were Vostok Battalion.
Q1004. Okay, And how would you describe members from Vostok, how were they different to the other rebels?
А  Well, they are more - they are more like military, they're more - more disciplined I would say. Also more confident in themselves.
Q1005. They also wear something different on their uniform. Can you recall what that might be?
А Well, they have their special sign.
Q1006. All right. And what does that sign say?
A There are, like, the stripes, this ribbon types of stripes. They are very thick and they also have it on their emblem. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like this. Like this. I think more like this. I think there were also guys from - what they call them - Orthodox Army.
Q1007. Orthodox. Yeah. What about that, did that appear anywhere?

AFP19112:
Q1027. Because I think in your report previously you referred to it as being on the outskirts of Torez.
А   Oh, because Torez this is the place where we - -
Q1028. For that?
A Yeah, for that. That's - PTC one is - - -
NPN17183:  In the report -
AFP19112:
Q1029. Yeah, but in the report I think she says the possible launch site as being there as well.
A No, no, no. Sure the landscape not far from the city of Torez but it - and we are now at the outskirts of the city of Torez, this is when we recorded - - -
NPN17183:
Q1030. When you - - -
A  - - the first one when I say - - -
AFP19112:
Q1031. First one from
A Yeah. So.
NPN17183:
Q1032. The day before?
А  The day before, so this is sort of the place from which - the picture was taken.
Q1033. All right.
А  As we believed and, yeah, so.
Q1034. Can I just show you this map again, attachment F?
A  Okay.
Q1035. If you could mark on there where you believe you were standing.
A   It's very, very small but I believe - I believe it was -
NPN17183:
Q1036. You can use my glasses.
A  (Laughs). No, no, that's fine. I mean, just the scale so I can make - easily make a mistake but I think it was somewhere - somewhere here or something.
AFP19112:
Q1037. If you could put a dot and then put another two circles around that dot.
A Two circles. Okay.
Q1038. So they look fairly obvious. Yeah. I'm just going to put, 'Launch site, question mark.' Are you happy with that?
A   Yeah, yeah. I've also seen - I don't remember, was it - the evening before, the twenty second or maybe on the twenty second - I think it was on the morning of the twenty-second before work, the Telegraph report. There was guys from Telegraph also tried to find the launch site. Yeah, yeah, and the - basically we came to more or less the same place I believe, so.
NPN17183:
Q1039. Okay, And what did you find over there?
A  No, we - we came to the - the - we didn't find anything there, anything sufficient I mean, unfortunately. I mean, we - I didn't manage to find that patch or ground which Telegraph found. (Laughs). Oh, yeah, yeah, we were very disappointed.
AFP19112:
Q1040. Is that the one that was turned over or is that the one that was burnt?
A   We didn't find anything.
Q1041. No, the one that said Telegraph - - -
A    Burnt. It was - but it wasn't big, you know. I - I read some investigations later and remembered those pictures from Google. Said something - it showed, like, huge piece of burnt ground. Definitely we didn't see anything like this. And also in Telegraph it was, like, a small piece of ground.
Q1042. So the ground looked quite normal?
A Ah - - -
NPN17183:
Q1043. What did you see actually?
А   We spent a lot of time there. Many - several hours, three or four maybe hours, you know, walking. You can't drive there properly because it's a field. We walked, like, as far as we could everywhere. Didn't notice -
NPN17201:

A Machines. Yeah, machines were - -
Q1058. Harvest.
А   Yeah, harvest machines going and there were - so some of it was easy to - to - some of the - those fields were easy to observe because you can see that the grass is low and that nothing is burnt. But some we had to walk. So we walked, like, all the way here where we only - where we could and here and here, didn't find anything.
AFP19112:
Q1059. You said before this was some sort of structure particularly?
A Yeah, some - some building.
Q1060. It was a building, was it?
А   Yeah, yeah.
Q1061. What type of building, like a domestic building or an industrial building or?
А   Like, maybe for storage of cows or maybe - for storage - of grains.
AFP19112:
Q1062. Okay.
А   You can
NPN17201:
Q1063. High or?
А   No, no, like - one for - maybe a little bit higher than usual one floor building.
NPN17201: One floor.
AFP19112:
Q1064.  One for?
А  Yeah.
Q1065. Oh, one floor?  Yeah.
А Yeah. Like, not high, usual building. So, yeah, we - we were everywhere here. We - we walked everywhere here.
Q1066. Were there any train tracks nearby?
А  Train tracks?
Q1067. Yeah, railway tracks.
A No, didn't see any.
Q1068. No. Okay.
A No.
NPN17201:
Q1069. If you agree - if you make a cross over here because that is the exact locates?
А  Well, I believe so.
Q1070. Okay.
A Yeah, yeah, of that co-ordinates.
Q1071. Co-ordinates. And you - imagine you stand here and looking over this area, would you - what did you see?
A   yellow - the yellow weed.
Q1072. Yellow weed?
А   Yellow weed. Yeah. There was - I don't, like, remember it very, very, very detail but there was a lot of yellow weed. I point it - I pointed the photo from - like, standing on the exact spot where the co-ordinates were - -
Q1073. Were you exactly on that spot?
A  Well, yeah, as - as - as good as the GPS could show us. When I was there when we have seen that there is nothing there I took, you know, the pictures to every side.
Q1074. … (indistinct) …
A  Well, no, no, just several pictures. When you are in one you can see … (indistinct) … like, notable - notable things and I then uploaded it to Twitter because I wasn't conversational - with this blogger. He's also on Twitter and so, yeah, it is - it is there. I say it because he's, like, so did you find anything? I'm, like, no, these are the co-ordinates, nothing. And so you can see the area around there and also we walked, like - maybe we went more than twenty - we walked everywhere we could, you know. Some - at some point we - we thought that maybe It's a little bit over there but then it was too dangerous to go because it was - - -
NPN17201:
Q1075. I can imagine.
A Yeah.
Q1076. So close to the … (indistinct) …
A Yeah, yeah. Yeah, went this way. We spent a lot of time there, many hours.

А   Maybe there is some gravel.
Q1093. Okay,
А   But, no, no proper covering I think.
Q1094. All right. And this village, does it have a name?
A M'mm.
Q1095. What was the name of the village?
А   Oh. Seems to me it is Nikishna but I may be - you know, may be - might - may be really mistaken. I don't remember because there were - there are so many of these villages.
NPN17201:
Q1096. Perhaps to make it clear to the other ones who are going to read and see your drawings can you write down the trees or forest to make it easier?
A Green - -
Q1097. Grass.
А   Seeds. Yellow seeds.
AFP19112:
Q1098. So by yellow seeds, is that sunflower or not?
А   No, no, по.
Q1099. Something different?
А   Sunflowers are this.
Q1100. Okay.
A Sunflowers.
NPN17183:
Q1101. And over here, this particular area.
A    It's also yellow. It's - you see there, like, it's also - they - they divide It … (indistinct) …
Q1102. Okay.
А   -- into areas.
Q1103. And were the areas or fields were already harvest?
А   Some of them.

Q1104. Okay.
А   Some of them were, some of them not. There were those who were - which were already clean. We - it was easy to check them so we used to look from the distance.
Q1105. Of co Of course. Mm.
A  Yeah, and the others which were not harvested yet we spent more time there.
AFP19112;
Q1106. You said there were two combine harvesters here.
А   M'mm.
Q1107. Did you speak to the other guy as well?
A  Well, they were sitting together.
Q1108. Together?
A Yeah.
Q1109. All right.
A  But they were really scared.
Q1110. Okay, Were they one old guy, one young guy or?
A They were both middle age. Well, one was a little bit older.
Q1111. Okay. All right. So what did you do after there?
NPN17183:
Q1112. Disappointed.
А   Well, then we found out that two Ukrainian fighter jets were downed that day.
AFP19112:
Q1113. M'mm.
A   Yes, yes, near Snezhnoye, near there and we decided to go there.
Q1114. Okay.
NPN17183:
Q1115. Okay.

А   Yeah, yeah - fighting.
NPN17183:
Q1137. The fighting is … (indistinct) …
A    It's - it wasn't fighting, it was actually - - -
Q1138. Outgoing shooting.
A   Out - outgoing shooting, yeah. Outgoing fight - - -
AFP19112:
Q1139. But you don't know who was there, whether it was rebels or?
A Well, quite definitely these were rebels because it was outgoing fire -
Q1140. But did you see them?
А   No, I didn't see them. We didn't come close. But this area was firmly controlled.
Q1141. When you say --
NPN17183;
Q1142. It was nearby?
A  Huh?
Q1143. It was nearby?
A   It was - our security advisor said it was three hundred metres to - the positions, so.
AFP19112:
Q1144. When you say outgoing fire, was it machine gun fire, rifle fire, pistol  fire?
А   Artillery.
Q1145. Artillery?
A   Artillery.
Q1146. Was it rapid artillery, was it rockets, was it guns or do you know?
A … (indistinct) …
Q1147. Sorry?
A  The one which throws mines.
Q1148. … (indistinct) … …
A   Mine - one hundred twenty millimetres - - -
Q1149. Did you see them firing, did you?
A  No, no, no. Just I think so by the sound.

Q1150. All right. So it's a large calibre –
A Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Q1151. artillery weapon.
А   Yeah.
Q1152. How many did you hear fire?
А  How many?
Q1153. Yeah.
A    They're often. Every - every - --
Q1154. So when they fired was there one at a time or did you hear a –
A  No, it wasn't like
Q1155. - - couple or four or six?
А   GRAD - no, no, no.
Q1156. No, not like GRAD. Did you hear a number of guns firing at once and then a pause then the same number of guns firing again?
А   It was -well, not that I'm an expert but it's like (verbally demonstrates) and then, yeah, then a pause - - -
Q1157. Then a pause.
A - -- then (verbally demonstrates) and then a pause.
Q1158. Okay, Was it the same pattern of (verbally demonstrates) every time or?
А   No, no, it was a little bit …(indistinct)…
Q1159. Okay.
A   So - I mean - - -
Q1160. So it could have been individual guns as opposed to a GRAD?

Q1180. Shot down in the area of?
A  Oh, yes, Snezhnoye. Think it was - -
Q1181. Snezhnoye
A - twenty kilometres from here or something. In the village. Something starting with 'D', 'D' something. … (indistinct) … Doesn't really matter but it starts with 'D'. So, yeah, we - we were deployed there to check and then we - all the other journalists were stopped at Snezhnoye checkpoint because, oh, they were stopped, they were not allowed to go. But we came from these fields through some strange field road and so we found ourselves - we weren't expecting that but we found ourselves already in Snezhnoye so we omitted the checkpoint. And then we went to - to the direction that we wished but then, again, it became too - too dangerous, too dangerous to go there and we stopped, turned back, went to Snezhnoye. And then we  stopped there to - to talk to people and that's where we met witness number three.
Q1182. Okay, And why did it became too dangerous? Were there - - -
А    Well, we were - first of all, we were hearing the blast, really loud ones. I think it was louder than - than artillery here so maybe it was bigger calibres. And also we heard that - we - we got the news that the planes were shot down but the pilots managed to use the parachute and then, now, there is a search operation by rebels, they tried to get pilots and this was too dangerous because, I mean, if we see something that they don't want us to see then, again, we can be killed. And also, meanwhile, our guys with another team tried to enter. They didn't - well, they - they were - they were approaching a checkpoint and there were - there were shots fired over their heads because rebels were very nervous and they wanted to stop. But that's the general atmosphere, so, yeah.
Q1183. The place where the planes came down - was something with a 'D'?
A   Yeah. Think it was Dmitrievka or something - -
Q1184. But which direction was it?
А   I think it was more to Russian border. Where is my favourite map? And which … …(indistinct) … Yeah, where you can better recognise … (indistinct) …
Q1185. I think the Russian border is over here.
A   What's that?
Q1186. From who did you get that information about planes?
A  I think we got call either from … (indistinct) … or from - was it Bishop - no Bishop had left by that time, there was someone else in charge.
Q1187. We're talking about the twentythird, still.
A   No, twenty-second.
NPN17201;
Q1188. Twenty-second or - -
A  Twenty-second, I think.
AFP19112: Tuesday.
NPN17183: Still on the twenty-second.
NPN17201:
Q1189. Did I make a mistake there?
A   It's twenty-second.
Q1190. Okay, Okay, Sorry, Correction.
А   I think it's …(indistinct)… That's it, that's where the planes …(indistinct)…
Q1191. … (indistinct) …
A   Yeah, it's good - I mean, it's very small but it's a good map, yeah, Dmitrievka.
AFP19112;
Q1192. How do you spell that, please?
A   Well, I spell it differently (laughs). I would say it's Dmitrievka - but I guess Ukrainians write it in a different way.
NPN17183: And I also have the Russian way.
AFP19112: Thank you.
NPN17183:
Q1193. On the map is it is where.
A It's here.
Q1194. Oh, here.
A Dmitrievka.
Q1195. Yeah. To the south …(indistinct)…
A   That's for you - another person … (indistinct)…
Q1196. …(indistinct)…

А   Said, 'I just saw a white stripe in the sky. '
NPN17183:
Q1213. Yeah. Okay.
A  And also I, as you said, start remembering that a few more people told me about that white stripe.
Q1214. And did she tell you where she saw the stripe, in which direction?
А  She was, like, 'I saw' - she said, 'I heard a bang. I walked to the window, saw a white stripe and then saw a jet, fighter jet. '
AFP19112:
Q1215. Did she say which window she was looking out of, of her house?
A No.
Q1216. But she was cooking pancakes?
A Mm. Yeah.
Q1217. All right.
A   And I think I didn't ask her which direction.
NPN17183:
Q1218. No?
A Uh-huh.
Q1219. That was my next question.
A  No, didn't ask …(indistinct)… -
Q1220.  …(indistinct)…
А  (Laughs) Of course. What do you think this first - first coal mine, she says, it must be very small.
Q1221. Yeah. I always - always ask for more details.
A  Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I heard about this white stripe before from - from - from some people as well.
Q1222. Okay, Did …(indistinct)… why she mentioned it was a jet that she identified there's a jet? Or did she just say from a white stripe and it was a jet?
А  Well - I believe that this is a jet, I don't know. Maybe - no, she just said, a jet, and, you know, in my mind, it corresponded to the, again, to the things which people - people said and I was, like, okay. And, again, you know, she - she showed that - this dynamic move. She referred to this dynamic move so - -
Q1223. Well, it look like a stupid question but I'll start. She and her husband, did they use any equipment to look at the - the aircraft … (indistinct)…
A  No, no, no. No. Ah, there was a story - I mean, one of the people I spoke to, they referred that - their neighbours looked - had the special equipment but this is - -
AFP19112:
Q1224. What does that mean, 'special equipment'?
A  Mm, again, this is in, how you call it - un - un - un – un transmitted material.
NPN17183: That's interesting.
AFP19112:
Q1225. But can you give us an idea of what that equipment might be? That won't compromise the person's identity, will it?
JURJENS: You can name the equipment.
IVSHINA: They said - again, it, the people I spoke to, they referred to their neighbors who looked at the - the binocular. And they - they saw - she - they said that they saw that the fighter jet belong to Ukraine.
AFP19112:
Q1226. So So this is the husband and wife?
A  No, no, no, this …(indistinct)…
NPN17183: No …(indistinct)… -
AFP19112:
Q1227. No, no, no, let - hear me out, yes. This is the husband and his wife who are referring to the - - -
А   No.
Q1228. No, no. The husband and wife said a friend of theirs, a neighbor of theirs has got binoculars?
A No.
Q1229. Okay.
NPN17183: That was another occasion. Sorry.
AFP19112: It was a what?
NPN17183: Another occasion.

nothing I can tell you' - and I thought it's a very good sign, you know, all of them told me that - that, like, 'I haven't seen anything with my own eyes, that's why I have nothing to tell you. ' I thought that's very good.
Q1247. And you said that's around the same time you saw the rebels and they approached you, did you?
А   Yeah, I mean, we - we - well, we stood there for a while with our camera and at some point they approached us. I mean, they didn't approach me, maybe, it was our driver or - I mean, at some point, like, we constantly, you know, check that everyone's okay, constantly have eye contact so at some - after we recorded someone, I don't remember who, turned back and saw that the, you know, rebels came and they approached us as soon as we stopped recording and said, You must go.' Said, 'Okay.' But overall - when was it - so, I mean, yeah, I, overall, I knew that it was forbidden to go to Snezhnoye without a rebel accompany you. So, yeah, we - we knew that we were a little bit risky.
A
NPN17183;
Q1248. …(indistinct)…
A Yeah, yeah.
AFP19112:
Q1249. That accreditation pass you had before from Donetsk, I understand that gets you around all, like, sorry, most parts of East Ukraine except for some towns which require their own specific media pass?
A Well in …(indistinct)… region and you have another one.
Q1250. Are there any other towns that you came across where you need a separate accreditation pass?
А   Me, personally, no. I know that they exist but I didn't.
Q1251. So after being advised by - sorry, not advised, but directed by the rebels to leave, you left?
A Yeah, yeah, they - they accompanied us to the checkpoint and - -
Q1252. And where - - -
A  (indistinct)… media.
Q1253.  And where was that checkpoint?
А   Where? On the entrance to Snezhnoye.
Q1254. North, east, south or west?
A Main entrance, where the - the sign 'Snezhnoye' is.
Q1255. Okay, And at that checkpoint what was there? Like, tanks?
A  Ah - well, I don't really remember. I think maybe there was APC, maybe not, don't remember any …(indistinct)… Yeah, I mean, you - you sort of get used to - to the sight of all those things and you don't notice them.
Q1256. I guess after a while they all begin to merge as one anyway.
A Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember that, you know, on that day and day before there was a significant change so it was - it was becoming more and more militaristic in a way. Started to see more, ah, military vehicles on the roads and when we were going back - was it on Monday - I think on Monday saw the columns of tanks. And either the Monday or Tuesday I've seen - we met a huge column of APCs and buses full of rebels and, et cetera, it was all going in the direction of Saur-Mogila. So it was becoming more and more tense, more and more militaristic, I would say.
NPN17183:
Q1257. And when did you see the tanks?
AFP19112:
Q1258. Yeah, Monday or Tuesday.
A   Monday or Tuesday, I can't really - I think Monday. Three tanks.
Q1259. Three tanks? Or three columns of tanks?
A No, three tanks. Three - three separate tanks. And then the same day It was a big column of APCs and buses full of rebels.
NPN17183:
Q1260. Okay. And what area was that?
A   It was - it was - they said they were heading to … (indistinct) … I think column was somewhere in between Torez and Donetsk and tanks were closer to Donetsk.
AFP19112:
Q1261. And on both occasions were they all rebels?
A   Yeah, yeah, definitely. Some were waving Russian flags.
Q1262. Oh, Russian flags?
А   Some were waving Russian flags but then, you know, on top of APCs there were rebels sitting and you can definitely see they were rebels, Georgian …(indistinct)… and, again, they were wearing, like, um, uniform but not - not like army uniform, so you can see, yeah, it's - it's not …(indistinct)…

film any military objects, any rebels, any - anything, any fighting without a special accreditation from STRELKOV. And it was - nobody really knew how - how to - how to get it. And a few guys - and - and what we knew - we found it out only when our guys were detained. So guys were filming near …(indistinct)…, I think, so they were detained, a big group of guys. …(indistinct)… journalists, our guys, someone else, they were all detained and when they said, 'Why?
So we have accreditation.' So, said, "Well, this doesn't mean anything anymore, you need a special accreditation from STRELKOV to film in the - in the, you know, zone of active combat." They were all detained but then they managed - they - then they found out that this …(indistinct)… journalists, they released them immediately and then …(indistinct)… journalists behaved in a really gentlemen way, they, ah, you know, informed everyone that there is such a problem and they applied, you know, to some senior officials, I don't know, maybe to STRELKOV or - I don't know, or maybe …(indistinct)… And so very soon the order came to release everyone. So - but we found out that this is a huge problem now so we can't basically film rebels any more. And I think, as far as I remember, these made us move to Sloviansk because - so you - you can't film rebels any more but we need to broadcast and let's go to Ukrainian side, it's - it's a good story there and we will be safe so we went to Sloviansk.
Q1283. Okay. And you've been there the whole day?
А   Oh, yeah, and where it takes a whole day. I mean, you go there, three hours I think with all the checkpoints and we filmed in Sloviansk and then …(indistinct)… and then way back another three hours.
Q1284. And And what did you see over there?
A Oh, well, we filmed, ah - how you call them - refugees who are coming back.
Q1285. Refugees coming back from?
A  The refugees from Donetsk - or from …(indistinct)… who - who flee to some Ukrainian sites, coming back to their homes. Also - yeah, we'll tell this story and, of course, the Ukrainians checkpoints, Ukrainian military training, et cetera, et cetera. But, yeah, our attention was drawn to the refugees and to the - and also to … (indistinct)… and the man whose house was completely destroyed, this type of story.
Q1286. Okay. When we go back to this transcript of your video.
А   Uh-huh.
Q1287. I can remember that you also have been Snezhne –
A Snezhnoye.
Q1288. Snezhnoye with a …(indistinct)… building …(indistinct)… building.
A Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Q1289. And you spoke there also with a rebel leader, I think.
А  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Q1290. What day was that because I missed that in our –
A Yeah, yeah, I do, I do - - -
Q1291. I was - …(indistinct)…
A I struggle …(indistinct)…
AFP19112: Got it here. Just got it here.
NPN17183: Oh, yeah. Okay.
AFP19112:
Q1292. Yeah. That was my question, too (laughs).
A  (Laughs). It's a good question because I do remember that we were in Snezhnoye twice.
Q1293. Yeah. Because it says here you discuss the apartment building, which is destroyed, and there were eleven fatalities and at some stage you've had an interview with Sergey GODOVANETS.
А   Oh - I'm really struggling to allocate it - ah - it - it seems that it was maybe also on Monday, you know, maybe it was also on Monday we went to Snezhnoye.
Q1294. When I read through your report you spoke about how you described the coal mine area, Saur-Mogila memorial, which is recorded on video - and then the next part you then talk about your conversation with the local self-defence force in Snezhne?
А  Snezhnoye, yeah.
Q1295. Snezhnoye, is it - of the Donetsk region.
A This interview was recorded not by me, this was recorded by Gabriel GATEHOUSE. So he - he came there earlier than we did. I really can't, you know, allocate it to this - -
Q1296. No, that's all right.
A   - - for me, it's one long day. So he came there before - before us and he spoke this commander and he actually advised us also to go there. And we came there on the checkpoint - this was - this was our first time in Snezhnoye and he said, 'Well, you know I'm very busy, And I gave interview to your colleagues so is it okay if I don't talk to you twice?'

A No, am - five, six am. I mean, I - I know that I handed it in at four - four am on the twenty-third and then after a few checks by, you know, producers, et cetera - said, 'Yeah, it's fine, we'll publish it as soon as possible." And I went to sleep and they check it in the morning, it was O eight. It was already on the website.
AFP19112;
Q1318. Then after editing, anything else that night, anything remarkable or?
А  No, no, no, nothing remarkable. I mean, yeah, I - yeah, there were minor remarkable things like, you know, we first noticed that APCs and tanks were, ah, riding around Donetsk, you know, and just downtown in Donetsk already this didn't happen before and this was already massive, you know, it's - before that it was, like, maybe one APC a day and this was already an occasion but by that time, you know, it was starting to become a routine of tanks, APCs, this Nona artillery machine. They started to, you know, constantly move around Donetsk.
Q1319. And when they move around Donetsk, were they by themselves or with  other tanks or APCs?
А  Oh, depends, Sometimes like this, sometimes different way.
Q1320. And who owns these military vehicles?
A Who - who owns?
Q1321. Yeah.
А  Rebels.
Q1322. All right. Because?
A It was firmly under rebel control.
Q1323. Okay. And you also saw flags and banners and?
A Not - not often. No, no. Usually not often.
Q1324. But the soldiers on the back were the same sort of clothing?
А   Well, sometimes, I mean, but generally, I mean, Donetsk was …(indistinct)… under - I mean, when I say rebels, I don't - I mean, I can't tell whether these were rebels or those who stay behind rebels - So I always sort of refer, I mean, these belongs to the rebel army but who - even though we don't exactly know, you know, who stands behind them, maybe this was APCs which were presented to them or something but, I mean, when you stay there on the ground you can't check, you just see that it's welcomed by the locals and by - it's, you know, it passes checkpoints without any checks so you can judge that this is, you know, pro-rebel forces, rebel forces.
Q1325. And when they went through the town of Donetsk, what was the mood like from the - from the locals? Were they supportive? Were they encouraging?
A They were very scared, you know - -
Q1326. Scared?
A  Very scared, yeah, because at that time, again, the fighting came very close to Donetsk - the first time from - from June - from - from the end of May. So they were very scared. Yeah, fighting in basements. Streets were basically almost empty. Cafes were shut down, most of them not working.
Q1327. So what happened next? I guess nothing else that night? We went to Thursday, do we, the twenty-fourth?
А  Yeah. I can't really - was it - what was on twenty-fourth? (Laughs). Don't - well - - -
Q1328. All right. If you can't –
A  Nothing remarkable …(indistinct)…
Q1329. If you can't recall what happened on that particular day, can you recall anything that happened after these events? Anything that sticks in your mind?
А   Well, no, no, it just was usual. I remember that on - on Friday, when we were supposed to leave, it was becoming really intense, you know, the fire was really intense, outgoing fire, there was some incoming fire but outgoing fire was really intense, there were definitely GRADs firing. And day by day it was becoming closer and closer to our hotel and we were worried. I remember we were worried - I really wanted to leave by that time. I think we were the last group, ah, BBC - last BBC group which - which was there, it was, like, we were - -
NPN17183:
Q1330. You were the most last people - - -
А   Yeah, yeah. Enough of being brave (laughs), time to stop (laughs).
Q1331. (Laughs). It gets too tense.
A Yeah, yeah, …(indistinct)… yeah. And also we were very tired, you know, by that time.
AFP19112:
Q1332. So as well as hearing the GRAD fire, the outgoing fire and the general  fire incoming and outgoing increasing, what else happened? Nothing in particular. Well, nothing, nothing really remarkable.
Q1333. Okay, So you went - -
NPN17183: